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 Post subject: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:08 pm 
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This letter is a few years old, but it's still very relevant.

February 14, 2004
By Doug Newman
Letter to the Denver Rocky Mountain News.

"Among the hot topics this year is the number of Americans losing manufacturing jobs because their employers have moved facilities overseas. I want to mention a cause of this trend that is almost never discussed.

If it were merely a due to cheap wages, all our jobs would have gone to Bangladesh years ago. However, this is not the case.

Rather, America is becoming a less and less attractive place to do business. American businesses big and small are caught in a regulatory vise grip that gets tighter all the time. Consider the effects of minimum wage laws, union demands, OSHA and EPA regulations, affirmative action, the Americans with Disabilities Act, age and sex discrimination laws, insurance regulations, health care benefit mandates, etc.

Nothing in life is free. Every regulation has a price. When it becomes too cumbersome to do business in one place, businesses will set up shop in another place. Ironically, it was Lenin who defined refugees as people who vote with their feet. Increasingly, American corporations are voting with their feet and moving manufacturing facilities to places like China and Mexico and customer service facilities to places like India.

Do companies do these things merely because they are disloyal to America? I don't think so. Rather, our government has taxed, regulated, litigated and otherwise harassed businesses to the breaking point. Here is some more irony: A lot of companies find China, one of the most brutal dictatorships ever, an easier place to do business than 'The Land of the Free.'

Recently, a good friend, age 53, told me a story about the fundamental impact of age discrimination rules. While he is gainfully employed, a lot of people his age are having trouble finding work. He said that the threat of age discrimination suits is making a lot of firms think twice before hiring people over 50. Fire someone over 50 and the risk of being body slammed with a lawsuit is so high that you might as well not hire them to begin with. As my friend says, 'The laws that supposedly protect us wind up working against us.'

My friend succinctly summarizes what is happening throughout our economy. Laws and regulations that were implemented with only the noblest of intentions are squeezing the very life blood out of one of the greatest economic engines the world has ever seen. We are every bit as socialist as any of the western European nations we deride as socialist. Unless things change, America's days of economic glory will soon be over.

-Douglas F. Newman"

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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Fri May 01, 2009 6:04 pm 
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Yeah, giving workers a fair deal sucks! Who really wants to guarantee their workforce a decent living wage?

The socialism claim is complete rubbish, no countries in Western Europe are socialist unless you can tell me one where the workers control the means of production. Stars why is it your writers insist on labeling anything they don't like socialism? It's merely a reactionary lie. McCarthy's ghost still looms over right wing politics it seems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... ic_freedom Assuming you take a socialist country to mean one with a level on here of 50 or under we can clearly the claim is a malicious fabrication.

"If it were merely a due to cheap wages, all our jobs would have gone to Bangladesh years ago. However, this is not the case." Bangladesh lacks the infrastructure, population and education levels to compete with all of the US workforce as well as being thousands of miles away.

If governments didn't regulate corporations they would be exploiting their workers and destroying the environment even more than they already do.


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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 12:50 am 
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What about states that don't have Right To Work Laws? Do you seriously think that workers should have no choice if they even want to join a union? Do you actually believe that? Big Labor bullies like the AFL-CIO and the United Auto Workers Union have too much power, and we need to take that away from them.

Quote:
"Manufacturing jobs have grown in states with right-to-work laws and have shrunk in states with compulsory union laws, according to data provided by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Right-to-work laws guarantee that no person may be compelled to pay dues to a labor union in the form of a union, closed or agency shop agreement.

Manufacturing jobs increased by 493,300 from 1982 to 1998 in right-to- work states, while declining 1,063,200 in states with compulsory union laws."


http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/article/531

Quote:
Stars why is it your writers insist on labeling anything they don't like socialism?


Gee, maybe because excessive government involvement in the economy IS socialist? :roll:

Quote:
If governments didn't regulate corporations they would be exploiting their workers and destroying the environment even more than they already do.


Who cares about the Environmental Protection Agency's regulations? There's no Constitutional authority to create an agency like that. It's totally unnecessary. All you would need to do in regards to protecting the environment is a few laws passed at the state or local level saying "No one has the right to pollute anyone else's property, whether it's private or public. If anyone is charged with doing so, they will be fined, and have their business license revoked until they clean it up." Problem solved.

What about Niihau Island, which is privately owned by the Robinson Family? Keith Robinson has been credited with rescuing many endangered species that would otherwise be extinct, for protecting the island from AIDS and influenza, and preserving traditional Hawaiian culture...all of this at a tiny fraction of the cost of the EPA doing it. And yet the fascists over at Earthjustice are still filing lawsuits against him because he doesn't want to give up his land because the Endangered Species Act tells him to.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _97874292/

By the way, who's going to regulate the government under all of this, and keep them from abusing their power? Or do you take the typical statist Western European view that the government needs to save us from our freedoms, because people might succumb to drastic measures like...being allowed to do what they want to?

_________________
"This life has been given to you for repentance. Do not waste it in vain pursuits." -Issac Of Syria

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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Sat May 02, 2009 9:22 am 
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Stars wrote:
What about states that don't have Right To Work Laws? Do you seriously think that workers should have no choice if they even want to join a union? Do you actually believe that? Big Labor bullies like the AFL-CIO and the United Auto Workers Union have too much power, and we need to take that away from them.

Quote:
"Manufacturing jobs have grown in states with right-to-work laws and have shrunk in states with compulsory union laws, according to data provided by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Right-to-work laws guarantee that no person may be compelled to pay dues to a labor union in the form of a union, closed or agency shop agreement.

Manufacturing jobs increased by 493,300 from 1982 to 1998 in right-to- work states, while declining 1,063,200 in states with compulsory union laws."


http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/article/531

Quote:
Stars why is it your writers insist on labeling anything they don't like socialism?


Gee, maybe because excessive government involvement in the economy IS socialist? :roll:

Quote:
If governments didn't regulate corporations they would be exploiting their workers and destroying the environment even more than they already do.


Who cares about the Environmental Protection Agency's regulations? There's no Constitutional authority to create an agency like that. It's totally unnecessary. All you would need to do in regards to protecting the environment is a few laws passed at the state or local level saying "No one has the right to pollute anyone else's property, whether it's private or public. If anyone is charged with doing so, they will be fined, and have their business license revoked until they clean it up." Problem solved.

What about Niihau Island, which is privately owned by the Robinson Family? Keith Robinson has been credited with rescuing many endangered species that would otherwise be extinct, for protecting the island from AIDS and influenza, and preserving traditional Hawaiian culture...all of this at a tiny fraction of the cost of the EPA doing it. And yet the fascists over at Earthjustice are still filing lawsuits against him because he doesn't want to give up his land because the Endangered Species Act tells him to.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _97874292/

By the way, who's going to regulate the government under all of this, and keep them from abusing their power? Or do you take the typical statist Western European view that the government needs to save us from our freedoms, because people might succumb to drastic measures like...being allowed to do what they want to?

Since when have corporations represented the people? Western Europe isn't statist and if you look at that list you will see Ireland is in fact ahead of the US. Calling an argument dumb is no way to win but you clearly need ad hominem to hide behind your lack of substance.
One rich family are protecting the environment, well they most all be doing it then! Typical of your arguments, one example apparently represents every possible similar situation and a personal attack thrown in.
Unions are a good idea, I agree in some cases they do have too much power but it is better than going back to Industrial Revolution working conditions.
Gee, well from the indicator of economic freedom no country in western Europe scores lower than 50 so none of them are socialist. Just because you don't want to believe doesn't make it false. And anyway Socialism is workers controlling the means of production rather than the government.
The people and the press are supposed to regulate the government.
Yes everyone should be free to do exactly as they please, how could it fail? If you want to murder someone go for it! It's your freedom.
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation; there could be any number of contributing factors aside from right to work laws in the states that manufacturing jobs increased in.

"If it were merely a due to cheap wages, all our jobs would have gone to Bangladesh years ago. However, this is not the case." Bangladesh lacks the infrastructure, population and education levels to compete with all of the US workforce as well as being thousands of miles away."
Would you agree with that statement?


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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 7:18 am 
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You didn't answer my question. I asked you if you agreed with Right To Work laws or if you thought that people should be forced to join a union even if they don't want to, and you never answered that.

Quote:
Correlation does not necessarily imply causation; there could be any number of contributing factors aside from right to work laws in the states that manufacturing jobs increased in.


Well not on one factor alone (increase in manufacturing jobs), but when reports also say that the economy in general grows faster in Right To Work states, that personal income growth is faster in Right To Work states, and that the number of citizens covered by private health insurance grows faster in Right To Work states...you can start to see a trend of multiple positive correlations.

Quote:
David Brandon, the president of The Pathfinders, which provides site selection and facilities consulting services to many of the world's largest corporations, reports that manufacturing companies pay very close attention to a state's Right to Work status. For more than half the manufacturing companies with which he does business, Right to Work is either "a threshold or a very important factor in making a decision on where to locate a factory and other operations," says Mr. Brandon.


http://www.right-to-work.org/nl/nl200708p8.pdf

Quote:
One rich family are protecting the environment, well they most all be doing it then! Typical of your arguments, one example apparently represents every possible similar situation and a personal attack thrown in.


That's not the point. The article is a comparison of private methods to government and environmental group methods. Keith Robinson says he estimates it would cost the latter groups 72x as much money to perform the work that he as one man did (250,000 vs. 18 million), and that they wouldn't be as efficient because they're all performing extremely specialized jobs but haven't been trained how each task interacts with one another. I don't think there's any reason to doubt him, he's an expert at what he's doing.

Quote:
Gee, well from the indicator of economic freedom no country in western Europe scores lower than 50 so none of them are socialist.


If you insist, I'll just drop the "socialist Europe" rhetoric. I know that the U.S. corporate income tax is higher than any of Europe's anyways.

Quote:
Socialism is workers controlling the means of production rather than the government.


Not really, socialism means State or Public control of the means of production as opposed to individualism and private control.

Quote:
Yes everyone should be free to do exactly as they please, how could it fail? If you want to murder someone go for it! It's your freedom.


Don't be a smart ass. You know what I mean.

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"This life has been given to you for repentance. Do not waste it in vain pursuits." -Issac Of Syria

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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:43 pm 
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No one should be forced to join a union. The article in your first point misses the point entirely and you didn't answer my question either.


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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:41 pm 
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What point does Doug Newman miss? Also, what question would you like me to answer?

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"This life has been given to you for repentance. Do not waste it in vain pursuits." -Issac Of Syria

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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:53 pm 
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"If it were merely a due to cheap wages, all our jobs would have gone to Bangladesh years ago. However, this is not the case." Bangladesh lacks the infrastructure, population and education levels to compete with all of the US workforce as well as being thousands of miles away."
Would you agree with that statement?
That one.
He misses the point that it is cheaper costs rather than regulation that make US jobs go overseas.


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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:15 pm 
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Aurora Fire wrote:
He misses the point that it is cheaper costs rather than regulation that make US jobs go overseas.


I'm jumping in a bit here, but IMO, profits are always the bottom line for big companies. They'd be willing to jump through a thousand miles of red tape and regulations if it meant larger profits.

If Bangladesh had a more lightly regulated industry than the US, but those regulations meant more cost to any companies that wanted to set up there, then US companies would keep their jobs in the US, despite the greater amount of regulation, because it would mean larger profits.

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 Post subject: Re: "Why Are [U.S.] Jobs Going Overseas?"
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm 
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Aurora Fire wrote:
"If it were merely a due to cheap wages, all our jobs would have gone to Bangladesh years ago. However, this is not the case." Bangladesh lacks the infrastructure, population and education levels to compete with all of the US workforce as well as being thousands of miles away."
Would you agree with that statement?


No I wouldn't.

Population? Bangladesh is the 7th most populated country in the world at 160 Million people. There really isn't a correlation between a country's population and it's ability to manufacture anyways. Granted, manufacturing is an inherently shrinking field, because improvements in technology make it easier and easier to manufacture. The reason the field can become larger is because of all the new products that are being invented. New ideas counteract the fewer workers needed.

Lack of education is more debatable. But in the U.S. we still have our high-end manufacturing, i.e. motorized vehicles, computer parts, airplanes, farming equipment and construction equipment. The city I live in is built around manufacturing for instance (granted, it is grey-collar, not blue collar). Considering that in Bangladesh, textiles are the main output, it doesn't seem likely that "lack of education" would keep them from signing on to making low-end goods.

Infrastructure? They have an international airport in Dhaka and the country borders the Indian Ocean for sending things by ship. Lack of infrastructure because of mountains being everywhere didn't stop West Virginia from being one of the big U.S. manufacturers (coal, glass, steel) before our heavy industry went south in the 1970s.

Thousands of miles away? Well that certainly hasn't stopped these jobs from going across the largest ocean in the world. With that in mind, what's another thousand or so miles?

Quote:
He misses the point that it is cheaper costs rather than regulation that make US jobs go overseas.


Denying that excessive regulations is one of the main causes is denying reality, and quotes from those who actually work in the business prove it. Right-To-Work laws make sure that corrupt unions can't lay down excessive regulations that help drive jobs out of the country.

What follows is going to be long, but I suggest you read.

From the National Right To Work Newsletter, August 2007 ( http://www.right-to-work.org/nl/nl200708p8.pdf ) :

Quote:
-The Commerce Department data, last updated in June, confirm that Wachovia Vice President and Senior Economist Mark Vitner was correct in 2004 when he told Site Selection magazine that Right to Work laws are "vitally important" for economic development. Mr. Vitner sees Right to Work laws largely as a "productivity issue." As an example, he cited a tool company that moved to Charlotte, in Right to Work North Carolina, "because it had 139 [union] work rules for 119 jobs in Utica [in non-Right to Work New York]."

-"If companies cannot find ways to increase productivity, they are going to shut down and relocate, particularly in a time when they are facing increasing competition from India and China," Mr. Vitner pointed out.

-Other experts echo Mr. Vitner's views. David Brandon, the president of The
Pathfinders, which provides site selection and facilities consulting services to many of the world's largest corporations, reports that manufacturing companies pay very close attention to a state's Right to Work status.
For more than half the manufacturing companies with which he does business, Right to Work is either "a threshold or a very important factor in making a decision on where to locate a factory and other operations," says Mr. Brandon.

-In the 28 forced-unionism states, real manufacturing output fell by 4.8% between 2000 and 2002, while real output grew by nearly one percent in Right to Work states. (Oklahoma, whose Right to Work law took effect in late 2001, is excluded.) For the 2000 to 2006 period as a whole. Right to Work states' real manufacturing output grew by 20.7%, more than triple the increase of forced unionism states.


From National Institute For Labor Relations Research ( http://www.nilrr.org/node/67 ):

Quote:
There is overwhelming evidence that Right to Work laws are economically beneficial. Here’s how David Littmann, the former senior vice president and chief economist for the Detroit-based Comerica Bank and current senior economist for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, summed up the evidence this February in testimony before the Michigan House Tax Committee on Restructuring: “Economic growth in right-to-work states has so convincingly and consistently eclipsed the average growth for non-right-to-work states that it makes the whole argument for workplace flexibility a non-controversial subject.”

Between 1995 and 2005, U.S. Department of Labor data show private-sector job growth in Right to Work states exceeded private-sector job growth in non-Right to Work states as a group by 79% and in Ohio alone by nearly 500%. Over the same period, inflation-adjusted U.S. Commerce Department data show real personal income growth in Right to Work states exceeded overall personal income growth in non-Right to Work states by 39% and exceeded Ohio’s meager increase by 142%. Meanwhile, U.S. Census Bureau statistics show that, from 1994 to 2004, the number of citizens covered by private health insurance grew by 11.5% in Right to Work states, slightly more than double the aggregate growth in non-Right to Work states. In Ohio, over the same period, the ranks of the privately insured actually declined by 0.2%.

State Right to Work laws have a long track record of helping below-average economies turn into economic leaders. The experiences of the two states that most recently enacted Right to Work laws, Idaho and Oklahoma, are good examples.

In the decade before its Right to Work law first took effect in 1986, Idaho’s employment growth was barely more than half the national average, according to the U.S. Labor Department. But over the past two decades, Right to Work Idaho repeatedly topped the nation in job creation. Between 1995 and 2005, private-sector jobs in Idaho increased by a net 30.3%, more than double the nationwide figure and nearly ninefold Ohio’s paltry job growth.

Oklahoma’s economic performance was also sub-par before its Right to Work law was approved in 2001. In the decade leading up to the law’s enactment, real personal income growth in the Sooner State was six percent below the national average. However, since the state Supreme Court unanimously rejected two Big Labor lawsuits designed to overturn the Right to Work law in December 2003, thus reassuring businesses and individuals it would remain on the books, Oklahoma’s economic picture has gotten brighter and brighter.

From the first quarter of 2005 through the first quarter of 2006, real personal income in Oklahoma grew by 2.9% — roughly double the national average and nearly three times as fast as the overall average of the 28 forced-dues states. According to the U.S. Commerce Department, personal income in the Sooner State is now growing faster than in every single forced-dues state. A wide array of businesses have recently made or announced major new investments in Oklahoma.

For example, this June, Mercury MerCruiser, a manufacturer of stern-drive marine engines, broke ground on a 23,000-square-foot expansion of its die-casting operations in Stillwater, Okla. The $13.5 million expansion is adding new jobs for machinists and die-cast operators. And in July, the newly formed MG Motors announced it was reviving the famous British MG brand, with headquarters in Oklahoma City. Assembly and distribution will be located in Ardmore, and research and development will be in Norman at the University of Oklahoma. MG Motors will create hundreds of jobs with a payroll in excess of $30 million.


Now what do you think?

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"This life has been given to you for repentance. Do not waste it in vain pursuits." -Issac Of Syria

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