Do you subscribe to any beliefs that are not popular? Beliefs that you don't often publicly state because people would most likely think they're too extreme, filled with hate, destructive to society or just plain messed up?

That's okay, we all have some beliefs like that. And you can post them in this thread and have a discussion here about them. I think that the world works best when people are always honest with one another, even about matters we would feel tremendous pressure to lie to other people about. Controversy lies ahead. You've been warned.

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"It is a melancholy fact that massive works of the intellect do not spring from the abstract workings of the brain and the imagination; they are deeply rooted in the personality." -Paul Johnson

INFP, 4w5 sx/sp

atheism to a degree, but i don't hesitate to talk about it most of the time

libertarianism to a degree, but i am wavering on that line, as i am starting to see that a lot of their arguments are backed up by fervor rather than fact (though i still consider myself more libertarian than anything else, its hard to maintain given the next one...)

moral skeptic. i seriously doubt any moral codes can be justified successfully. imo they are codes build into us by evolution to prompt us to act in pro-social ways. like most people i have very strong feelings about whats right and whats wrong, but i also realize that when i try to justify these feelings rationally i can't do it.

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Isn't it pretty to think so?

It's interesting how I believe in the underlined part and yet find in it a greater reason for hope for the spiritual progress of mankind - in that I see moral consciousness as a collective organism that must evolve as human society itself evolves. I believe that the scientific method springs forth from the same fundamental search for meaning as that which sparked the philosophy of ethics - the application of judicious reasoning in our search for underlying, enduring and universal principles that ultimately frame our actions, attitudes and perceptions in such a manner that does justice to our spiritual/aesthetic sensibilities/desire for balance (ratio) or a sort of spiritual homeostasis. And by spiritual, I refer to the self-consciously "intellectualized" experience of human life.

And that being said, I believe that human intelligence is unique because it is intuitive. We do not merely live in the "here and now" as other sentient creatures. There is a part of us that seeks ecstasy - being beyond being - an extension of the here and now, of the material, finite and immediate. And with this power of intuition, we seek science and ethics and the spiritual/intellectual evolution of human society - for example, a science that seeks to predict when physical disasters may happen so as to avoid them, and in parallel, a philosophy of ethics that seeks to predict how social disasters might be prevented by arguing for or against certain beliefs.

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I thought this would be easy to answer, but come to think of it, I don't know.

Is this a bad sign?

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Is the cup half-full or half-empty? Neither, the cup is the rightful domain of air,
and water are the imperialistic invader that must be fought by all means neccesary.
Drink it.

In contrast to TehBelle, I think my Christianity is an unpopular belief that I find hard to talk about. At my old work place, which otherwise was full of fun and respect, people felt free to mock and poke fun at Christianity and Catholicism. They never made any noise about Buddhism, Hinduism or Islam. Christianity is a convenient pissing pot for people in Australia. Atheism is considered cool and progressive, Buddhists are awesome, Hindus are not understood but given basic respect, and Islam is on the edge due to the still-pervading effects of the media's obsession with 9-11.

I wouldn't mind if people didn't speak so much from pure ignorance and stopped concentrating on the bad apples who are not actually Christian in the true sense.

I completely agree with sciski. It has become, for the most part socially unacceptable among "intelligent" people to be a Christian if you live in a white, Western nation. I don't think things are as bad here as they are where you live sciski but on websites like personalitynation there is still a sneering double standard for how certain intellectual opinions should be treated, even if up front these people appear more respectful than they are.

Honestly, I think the reason most of these people reject it has its roots in one of two areas: 1. because "bad apples" as you call them are given high profile by the mainstream media and good apples are not (for various reasons) and 2. because they're scared of being made fun of for going outside mainstream, establishment-approved intellectual opinion. Thus the pressure to conform makes them want to deny any supernatural explanation for the origins of life. My respect for these people is very very low since I usually end up on the receiving end of their persecution somehow and they're the mindset responsible for suppressing brilliant discoveries in the world.

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"It is a melancholy fact that massive works of the intellect do not spring from the abstract workings of the brain and the imagination; they are deeply rooted in the personality." -Paul Johnson

INFP, 4w5 sx/sp

I'm scared of threads like this one. The last time I posted in such a thread, at a different forum, there was hell to pay for it, which involved many pages of conflict, and at least one member ended up getting banned for being too aggressive with me, while another probably should have. :-/

I really want to participate, but I'm nervous now.

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Never apologize for showing feeling. When you do so, you apologize for the truth.
~Benjamin Disraeli

Hmmm, well, I guess this is the 'unpopular beliefs' thread. I'd like our members to be free to post what they like (within the rules and guidelines of course, but lots of that is common sense). I suppose is there's any strong conflict, either the admins or mods will step in with warnings.

I guess you can help by being careful how you phrase your thoughts so that it's clear it's only your opinion... some people may not like your opinion and may say so (or may like you less as a result), but they are still bound by the 'rules of engagement' of the forum.

From what I've seen, in Australia, it's partly the result of being familiar with Christian concepts due to the high number of Catholic schools and quite a large Christian/Catholic population, and familiarity has bred contempt in some cases. So it's 'cool' to be dismissive of Christianity.

Also, I think a lot of people are justifiably annoyed by evangelism attempts, which can be quite invasive or overbearing. As well, Christians are generally seen as intolerant, which is often true, though it's somewhat a product of being legalistically attached to certain aspects of doctrine (and to my view, often used as a cover for their own bigotry). Christian involvement in politics has also blackened the name of Christianity, and I personally oppose the heavy-handed tactics adopted by Christians in politics. It's one thing to have a belief that you should not do certain things, and quite another to impose the rules associated with those beliefs on others who do not share the same belief.

Oh, and also the really poor science associated with creationism (I am not opposed to the idea of God creating the universe, what I am opposed to is poor science) just adds to the negative view of Christians. (Ironically, it was during my study of science that I first became open to the idea of a creator behind it all--just not from the evidence that creationism presents.)

So I well understand the reasons people dislike Christianity in general, and it's a real shame, because all the focus is drawn to the bad aspects, and the truly amazing parts of the message get lost.

sciski... have you read anything from francis collins about this sort of thing? i recall that he was actually raised an atheist and converted while in medical schoool or something like that... anyways its refreshing to find theists that have a healthy respect for science rather than scorn for it. thats the kind of theist that i am able to respect, you know?

also lol so no one gets the wrong idea, atheists who are idiots piss me off too

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Isn't it pretty to think so?

Well, if you're sure it's safe:

1.There is an absolute objective basis for morality, and real good and evil exist independently from our cultural views or personal perceptions of them.

2. God exists as a conscious entity that interacts personally with its creation. Jesus, whose name is actually Yeshua, Yoshua, Yahushua, or something of the sort (sources are inconsistent) rose from the dead, is more than just a good teacher, and has the power to save people from sin.

3. Except in the direst of emergency situations, such as if someone were starving in the woods, no animal should ever be killed, experimented on, or subjected to any kind of physical or emotional cruelty, because to mistreat an animal in any way is to violate its basic rights as a living being.

4. Looks-based mate selection is evil, even when applied moderately in combination with other more appropriate selection methods.

5. Abortion is murder, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the conception. There should be more emphasis on making sure there is adequate support for women who find themselves trapped in difficult situations, to make sure nobody ever feels that it is the most desirable option, or that it is a necessary evil.

6. It is okay to need and be needed, and the idea that people should seek to be independent creates a cold, disconnected world.

7. Violence is never right, even when used for self-defense.

8. Size discrimination is currently a more pressing problem than racism because of how much less has been done to prevent it, and because of how much more socially acceptable it remains.

9. All people, regardless of gender, should be allowed to be emotionally open and authentic, to laugh, cry, or communicate their feelings in any non-harmful way, in all contexts, including at work.

10. All drugs should be legal.

11. Nobody should ever be legally required to wear clothing, and any laws forbidding nudity are a violation of the right to own our bodies, which do not belong to the government or to our employers.

12. Even having sexual thoughts about someone other than one's romantic partner is cheating, and all pornography is unacceptable.

13. We have a right to have our emotional boundaries respected when we express them, and any violation after we ask someone to stop hurting us is unacceptable.

14. People who don't lock their doors, and who are robbed, are not partly at fault. Nobody has a responsibility to defend himself/herself against the evil acts of others. Therefore, only those who choose to victimize others are at fault, regardless of whether the victim takes action to prevent or resist the crime.

15. Any person who shames or punishes someone for complaining, crying, or for showing other signs of distress is abusive, and needs to change.

16. Spanking, yelling, threatening, shaming, or intentionally causing pain to children should not be allowed.

17. No child should ever be forced to go to school against his/her will, nor should any parent be legally required to educate his/her child according to someone else's standards.

18. We should not be regularly expected to force ourselves to go to sleep or wake up at times that are unnatural for our bodies, but should, whenever possible, be allowed flexible schedules.

19. No job should have a dress code except jobs where special clothing is required in order for the person to successfully complete his/her assigned tasks, nor should uniforms exist.

20. Soldiers are just as responsible for the murders they commit as they would be if they were not following someone else's orders. Those who kill people in wars are just as responsible for their murders as those who kill people in other situations.

21. Children should never be made to clean their rooms if they prefer them messy, because when a parent has a child, one room of their house is no longer their own, but belongs to the child. One of the parents' duties is to provide a safe space that is comfortable for the child, in which the child is allowed privacy whenever desired and control over their surroundings. All of the other rooms may be kept however the parents choose.

22. Adults should not be expected to organize their homes in order to be polite for guests, because our individual preferences should be respected. We should not be discriminated against for disliking an orderly environment.

23. Children should be allowed to ask their parents the reasons for their rules, and to discuss them thoroughly, without being punished for their curiosity or disagreement.

24. Love is the meaning of life, and our ultimate purpose here. Anything that works against love is evil.

25. The means one uses should always be consistent with his/her desired ends.

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Never apologize for showing feeling. When you do so, you apologize for the truth.
~Benjamin Disraeli

No, I haven't read Francis Collins, but will look him up now.

Haha, I also respect people who aren't idiots! Seems we share a similar distaste for ignorance.


snail, thank you for sharing your views. I don't find them hugely offensive and hope others can respect your views as well.

^ What she said. Thanks for sharing these, snail.

I was just thinking today about whether or not I can accept Francis Collins' assertion that evolution is the language through which God created the world. I am following a couple of blogs on Francis Collins' Biologos site. One on the aesthetics of evolution and the other on the Christian concept of the Trinity and evolution.

@snail on number 11: It bothers me less to see that a person is wearing nothing. It bothers me more to see the expression he/she is wearing on his face while wearing nothing!

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Here are some of my unpopular ones:

-Morality is not relative but rather universal. The same morality applies to all humans in all cultures in all time periods.

-Various "conspiracy theories" are not theories. They are facts that anyone can confirm if they just research them.

-Every single post-Civil War military conflict the United States have been involved in was a mistake, World War II included.

-The Confederate States were the good guys in the American Civil War.

-All drugs should be legalized, no matter how harmful they are.

-Homosexuality cannot be considered equal to heterosexuality because only a man and a woman together are capable of producing children.

-Women are psychologically more authoritarian than men and this carries over into politics, thus it would be better if far fewer women voted.

-The #1 cause of Anti-Semitism is the bad behavior of certain Jews.

-Multiculturalism doesn't work, for a variety of reasons too long to list. White majority nations have the right to remain white majority and should work to make their majorities larger.

-The Beatles were mediocre. George Harrison was awesome but he was only 1/4 of the band. Their early stuff was inferior to their contemporaries (Beach Boys, Four Seasons) as was their later stuff (Genesis, The Moody Blues). "Imagine" by John Lennon is one my least favorite songs and if you think that its lyrics are "inspiring", you either A: don't understand what they're actually about or B: are really screwed up.

I encourage debate on the things I just listed, as long as it's civil. Though I probably have more than a few people shocked right now.

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"It is a melancholy fact that massive works of the intellect do not spring from the abstract workings of the brain and the imagination; they are deeply rooted in the personality." -Paul Johnson

INFP, 4w5 sx/sp

Things I agree with are in blue. Things I disagree with are in red. I have given explanations.
I wanted to give the thumbs up on your post, but didn't want anyone to think I was a sexist or a racist, so I decided to selectively explain which things I am thanking you for posting.

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Never apologize for showing feeling. When you do so, you apologize for the truth.
~Benjamin Disraeli

thoughts...

on conspiracy theories: thats an incredibly vague statement. certainly nothing is false simply because it is labeled a conspiracy theory. on the other hand, many beliefs that attract that label are lacking in evidence so research will not uncover their truth. i doubt a debate on this topic would be fruitful though lol. generally what people who believe in conspiracy theories consider "evidence" other people consider "nonsense".

on the confederacy: assuming you mean on their desire to secede from the union not in their insistence that slavery be legal

on homosexuality: i'm not sure you thought this one through. are marriages where one or both partners are infertile illegitimate? if you want to appeal to some kind of design argument (men and women are meant to be together, same sex couples aren't) just appeal to god directly.

on authoritarianism: i think thats an oversimplified view of things. women and men both have authoritarian tendencies. i would say this varies more by individual than by sex. if you have to make it about gender, i would say men are more likely to be authoritarian in an aggressive violent way whereas women are more likely to be authoritarian in a "nanny state" kind of way. in other words, the death penalty and expansionist wars are just as authoritarian as nanny state legislation.

on multiculturalism:what do you mean by "doesn't work"? of course theres always conflict between differing cultures, but cultures with no mixing or new imput tend to stagnate, don't you think?

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Isn't it pretty to think so?

1. Homes should be fitted with hot, cold and cold-beer taps.

2. Animal rights should be as prominent in the law, and prosecuted as forcefully, as human rights.

3. Environmental costs should be included in the price of a product.

4. Many people shouldn't be allowed to have babies, both because many people are really crappy parents, and because there are already too many damn people on our planet.

5. It should be illegal to use the remaining arable land for anything but farming. Developers should be forced to intensify existing urban areas, and leave our remaining open space/natural spaces alone.

6. It should be a law that women are required to wear summer-dresses during warm, sunny days.

what about lukewarm beer for the brits??

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Isn't it pretty to think so?

Self-proclaimed debunkers or deniers of conspiracies frequently have ulterior motives. The Center For Disease Control's director for 7 years left in order to become president of Merck's vaccine division. Any wonder that CDC "scientists" claim there's no link between vaccines and autism?



That's right. Lincoln started a war of aggression that ended up killing 600,000 Americans and destroying most of the South, not for the sake of ending slavery but for keeping the Union in one piece. Whenever two sides are in military conflict, you always support the side that is defending themselves from unprovoked aggression. This means supporting the Confederacy against the Union, Ireland against the United Kingdom and Palestine against Israel.



I'm not talking about gay marriage. I'm talking about homosexuality as an orientation vs. heterosexuality as an orientation. It doesn't matter if the cause is genetic, personal choice, societal pressure or some combination of all these things. There are straight couples that are infertile but the infertility rate of a gay couple is always 100%.



There are some areas where men are more authoritarian than women but only a few. If you look at the issues of gun ownership, taxes and spending, economic regulations and drug prohibition, women are FAR more authoritarian.



Multiculturalism leads to higher rates of conflict and crime, causes people to feel isolated from one another and leads to overall life dissatisfaction for all groups. It was probably the number one cause at the grassroots level of the Bosnian War. American immigration needs to be based on the melting pot idea, where immigrants from all countries can come as long as they adopt the white, Western, European way of living. Even though I'm a libertarian, I would support a law saying that anyone who makes published, popular statements in favor of increased Hispanic immigration should be forced to reside in an area that is Hispanic-majority. BTW I can't be called racist because I live in probably the most Asian city in my state and I consider this a positive. Asians are highly entrepreneurial and frequently innovative. These are the types of immigrants we need. Not Hispanics who force white people to pay for all their life necessities and call this "social justice".

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"It is a melancholy fact that massive works of the intellect do not spring from the abstract workings of the brain and the imagination; they are deeply rooted in the personality." -Paul Johnson

INFP, 4w5 sx/sp