I couldn't find the appropriate thread, but this section, having to do with relationships, seems like a good place to start. (Note to Pipster, Sciski or other mods: I admit I haven't been paying attention here of late, so feel free to move this if it belongs elsewhere).

What I want to talk about is the interplay of temperament on relationships -- especially how I (and perhaps this generalizes to many INFPs) work so hard at empathy and understanding that we loose track of reality. But also, I want to address how I (and maybe you) can be misled, and why. And maybe, collectively, we can gain some wisdom.

I will be posting bits of my recent life experience here and invite anyone to join in.

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Fiction is just like real life, only truer.

In a very small nutshell, a few of the issues that have brought me back here with wanting to discuss temperament:

I was married for 11 years to an ENTP who left me last June for someone else's wife. Although he began drinking more and more heavily a few years ago, sometimes all night with this woman and a friend of hers, and acted in very hurtful ways, I kept reinterpreting it as ENTP needs and behavior. It wasn't healthy ENTP behavior -- it was behavior dominated by alcoholism and narcissism.

During the time I was with him, I thought of my self as being increasingly introverted. Yes, I'm an introvert, but abusive criticism made it impossible to reveal myself and feel safe, so I withdrew. I excused his behavior as NT insensitivity instead of unhealthy bullying. I interpreted my behavior as introversion instead of taking my self into protective custody.

MBTI made so much sense to me, but I lost track of the difference between healthy temperament types and unhealthy behaviors and responses.

_________________
Fiction is just like real life, only truer.

Agreed.



This seems to be the danger of any rationalisation that somewhat invalidates, dismisses or otherwise takes the focus off your own feelings. The logical/rational mind is saying "Hey, it's okay/normal for them to act this way, so deal with it", whereas your core is being beaten up and crying out, "But I'm hurting! Make it stop!" The explanations do not remove the hurt.

I used to do that very much indeed. I realised that MBTI could be useful as a lens for understanding other people's behaviour, but ultimately, it wasn't an excuse for behaviour I found unacceptable or just appalling. And while it's true that your ex-husband's behaviour wasn't fueled so much by ENTPness as it was by narcissism, I think the way that abusive behaviour is expressed will generally be expressed in a way that's typical of their MBTI type. And the reverse is true--if they love, honour and respect you, that will be expressed in a way that's comfortable for their MBTI type as well.

Ultimately it comes down to who treats you well according to their own particular idiosyncrasies, and who treats you badly according to their own idiosyncrasies. It's in the attitude, in a way, not the behaviours themselves. I think it's reasonable to assume that a T type would not (generally) be as sensitive to your feelings as an F type, but there's a huge difference between a T type who is trying their damnedest to be sensitive and a T type who is not trying at all, or in fact, doing the complete opposite.

Wandering around the forum, I came across this entry from last October by Pipster: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1028
It's about "gaslighting" -- how appropriate. The past couple of years, as my husband drinking and partying with the other women, he, they, a few of their friends, and even the other woman's husband kept telling me how unreasonable I was to object to it. I was told I had jealousy issues, anger issues, etc. Now I see clearly I had "my husband is cheating on me" issues. I'd started seeing a therapist to try to figure out what was wrong with me, but it was she who told me about the term "gaslighting." I now refer to that group as The Gaslight Gang.

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Fiction is just like real life, only truer.

I was going to highlight the bits of the above that I particularly agree with, until I realised that that would mean me highlighting about 95% of it which kind of diminishes the point

Anyway... I wonder if there is a tendency for us when armed with a fair bit of MBTI knowledge to use our understanding of personality type/behaviour to make excuses for someone who is simply behaving in an unacceptable way? I know I certainly have. In my previous job, I had a woman boss who was an absolute nightmare to work for. On the surface - and to colleagues who did not work directly with her - she was all lovely and polite and laid back, but to the people working for her she was a micromanaging, nasty, manipulative control freak. Initially I dismissed my instincts about her and told myself that she was just acting in a typical ISxJ way, but with hindsight and some research I later realised that she was actually just a bully.

(If anyone is interested in knowing more about bullying at work, I found the following page very useful:

http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/bully.htm

In particular, section 3, "Personal qualities that bullies find irresistible" was a real eye-opener and absolutely screamed INFP.)



Most interesting indeed *nods sagely*. I have to say that I was a bit disappointed that nobody responded to my gaslighting thread - I thought it was hugely significant and valuable when I discovered it and was looking forward to discussing it here. So Fern I'd be interested to hear anything else you care to mention about gaslighting!

Yes, significant indeed, and all this ties together. I think INFP's Armed With MBTI Knowledge (IAWMFs) are particularly vulnerable to being gaslighted. I did it to myself.

Example: Alan stopped buying me gifts with much thought or meaning, but he did buy me a new laptop for writing fiction and an MP3 player.

IAWMF interpretation: He's an NT, so he's expressing his love by buying me technology he knows I will appreciate. Although the NF in me would like something more romantic, I should recognize and appreciate this as the expression of love that it is.

'I'm being gaslighted' reality check: He stopped buying me romantic gifts because he was romantically involved with his drinking buddy. But he still liked shopping for technology, and not buying me a gift at all would be too obvious, so he got me things I needed.

I think the INFP vulnerability is due to the interplay of both having felt so misunderstood ourselves and our deep desire to understand others.

_________________
Fiction is just like real life, only truer.

It feels good when you give yourself permission to just say what's what.

Nice link about workplace bullying as well. Might be worth giving it its own post.



I think I remember reading that one and deliberately holding off on offering my opinion because sometimes I feel like I overpost on here and that may stop others from talking.

I thought it was very valuable, and I guess if it's at least been read, it has value to others.



I think your interpretation was very reasonable, and many people (in an attempt to be understanding) would have interpreted it the same way. It's a shame he took advantage of that side of you.

I'm glad your therapist told you about gaslighting. It really can make you feel as if you're the crazy and unreasonable one.

And tangentially related to being gaslighted, I can think of things I'd like to call my ex, although usually I refer to him as Mr. Hole, now I think I shall refer to him as a craven knotty-pated bladder! Here are some other most excellent ideas:
http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/index.html?

Or if you want to make your own,
http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/shake_rule.html

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Fiction is just like real life, only truer.

I don't know enough about MBTI to use it to make excuses for people's behavior, and I don't know what the word 'gaslighted' means, either. But I can relate in other ways. I have a tendency, because of my empathic nature, to make excuses for people's bad behavior. I think this has in the past left me vulnerable to being bullied, abused, scammed and taken for a ride. I've had to really work hard, and still am working hard, to learn how to be assertive and stand up for myself. For example my partner used to have some major aggression problems. He was in the military and has PTSD and I really feel for him and totally understand why he has ended up with so much anger and hatred towards society. But I found I was allowing him to bully me because I was focusing totally on being understanding and sympathetic towards him but neglecting my needs and my right to be respected. Eventually I snapped and left abruptly, I got back with him and we've worked things out, things are much better now between us...luckily. I'm glad I left because it was the catalyst for much-needed change.

I find I can have sympathy for the worst kind of people and tend to want to ask "What lead this person to become so filled with hatred that they could do such a thing? What happened to this poor person to make them become so heartless?" I think in many ways that's a good quality, but I guess there's a point where we have to hold people accountable for their actions and draw a line.

Hmmm.....

Hi Sakura -- nice to meet you!



Excellent point! I think perhaps the key is to find a way to BOTH have empathy and understanding AND to hold people accountable for their actions.

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Fiction is just like real life, only truer.

I couldn't agree more, Fern!

And it's nice to meet you, too
(I LOVE your signature )