Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ   Arcade 


Welcome
Welcome to infpverse

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!

Board index » Conversations » The Body




 Page 1 of 1 [ 5 posts ] 



Author Message
 Post subject: Faster than the Speed of Light: E≠mc^2 ??
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:58 pm 
Offline
Master of the cookieverse
Master of the cookieverse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:28 am
Posts: 1761
Gender: female
MBTI type: ARRR
Enneagram type: 5w4
Enneagram Tritype: 549
Class: Pirate
I like my food: Delicious
I'm hoping that all of you have already heard about CERN's research results on the speed of the ghostly sub-atomic particle, the neutrino, with neutral charge and rest mass close to nil. Neutrinos seem to be traveling fractions of a second faster than the speed of light (roughly 300,000 km/sec) which is counter-intuitive, based on Einstein's famous equation: E=mc2 that requires immense amounts of energy to accelerate particles heavier than photons (ligh particles) close to the theoretical cosmic speed limit.

Concerns regarding the reliability of the data have been quelled to some extent. From what I've gathered, the experiment had been conducted about 1500 times by CERN scientists, with a GPS system accounting for geophysical variables that might slightly vary the measurement of the distance traveled by the particles in the subterranean accelerator. So what these CERN scientists are asserting is that their experimental results are giving us error-free and accurate measurements.



This is exciting, and one of the reasons I'm glad to be around at this stage in our scientific (mis)understanding of the fundamentals of the cosmos. Personally, I'd love it for the data to be accurate, as the neutrino could possibly be a ghostly manifestation of an extra-dimensional phenomenon. :ghost :love:



That the little guys are currently in the spotlight is so cool. You gotta love the little guys (neutrinos) because without them, the lighter atoms from supernovae will not accelerate sufficiently to fuse together into the heavier atoms that make up carbon-based life. No neutrinos = no you. I like to think of them as the ghostly midwives of carbon-based life. They have such a large impact on our cosmos, and yet pass right through almost anything in the universe like ghosts. Go neutrinos!!! :bounce:

_________________
Image


Last edited by crystaluniverse on Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top 
 Post subject: Re: Faster than the Speed of Light: E≠mc^2 ??
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:53 pm 
Offline
The powers that be
The powers that be
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:58 am
Posts: 1904
Location: Halfway Down the Stairs
Gender: male
MBTI type: INFP
Enneagram type: 4w5 so/sx
crystaluniverse wrote:
Concerns regarding the reliability of the data have been quelled to some extent. From what I've gathered, the experiment had been conducted about 1500 hundred times by CERN scientists, with a GPS system accounting for geophysical variables that might slightly vary the measurement of the distance traveled by the particles in the subterranean accelerator. So what these CERN scientists are asserting is that their experimental results are giving us error-free and accurate measurements.


Only up to a point. CERN itself doesn't have the most accurate way of determining when neutrinos have been produced - rather than having a detector like at Gran Sasso, the departure point of neutrinos from CERN has to be calculated from data gathered after the fact, and there's enough of a margin for error in those calculations to potentially account for how "early" the neutrinos seem to be arriving.

Lots of articles on neutrinos over at NewScientist.com, from which the above information came.

_________________
What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.
- Gerard Manley Hopkins


Top 
 Post subject: Re: Faster than the Speed of Light: E≠mc^2 ??
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:57 pm 
Offline
Master of the cookieverse
Master of the cookieverse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:28 am
Posts: 1761
Gender: female
MBTI type: ARRR
Enneagram type: 5w4
Enneagram Tritype: 549
Class: Pirate
I like my food: Delicious
DC wrote:
CERN itself doesn't have the most accurate way of determining when neutrinos have been produced - rather than having a detector like at Gran Sasso, the departure point of neutrinos from CERN has to be calculated from data gathered after the fact, and there's enough of a margin for error in those calculations to potentially account for how "early" the neutrinos seem to be arriving.


I just saw the article, Dimension-hop may allow neutrinos to cheat light speed

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20957-dimensionhop-may-allow-neutrinos-to-cheat-light-speed.html wrote:
A measurement error in the recent neutrino experiment could also explain the contradiction.

[...]

For instance, although the detectors in Italy can pinpoint the neutrinos' time of arrival to within nanoseconds, it's less clear when they left the accelerator at CERN. The neutrinos are produced by slamming protons into a bar-shaped target, sparking a cascade of subatomic particles. If the neutrinos were produced at one end of the bar rather than the other, it could obscure their time of flight.


Hopefully, the distance traveled from one end of the bar won't account for the full 60 nanosecond speed difference, since neutrinos can travel straight through matter with no effects.

Thanks for pointing me to NewScientist. Here's a quote from another one of their articles, Faster-than-light neutrino claim bolstered.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20957-dimensionhop-may-allow-neutrinos-to-cheat-light-speed.html wrote:
The GPS measurements, which were so accurate they could detect the crawling drift of the planet's tectonic plates, gave precise benchmarks for each side of the tunnel, allowing the researchers to triangulate the underground detector's position in the planet. Combining that with the known position of the neutrino source at CERN gave a distance of 730,534.61 metres, plus or minus 20 centimetres.

To determine exactly when the neutrinos left CERN and arrived at Gran Sasso, the team hooked both detectors to caesium clocks, which can measure time to an accuracy of one second in about 30 million years. That linked the labs' timekeepers to within one nanosecond.


Sounds good to me. 8)

If the timekeepers on both ends are linked to within one nanosecond, and 1500 experiments gave a precise measurement of the speed of the neutrino at 60 nanoseconds faster than light speed, then the margin for error is small enough to still give neutrinos a wide lead over photons.

But this is an issue of synchronizing timers.

_________________
Image


Top 
 Post subject: Re: Faster than the Speed of Light: E≠mc^2 ??
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:55 pm 
Offline
The powers that be
The powers that be
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:58 am
Posts: 1904
Location: Halfway Down the Stairs
Gender: male
MBTI type: INFP
Enneagram type: 4w5 so/sx
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... yfest.html

There was also a documentary on the BBC last night on the subject (don't know if the link will play outside the UK though). One of the theories proposed was something suggested by string theory, which is that the neutrinos might be gettting hurled from our 3 dimensional 'brane' by the energies involved in the experiment, into the 'bulk' of the other dimensions, before coming back into our 'brane' - effectively taking a shortcut. To be fair though, even the string theorist they had on felt that it probably wasn't what was actually happening with this experiment.

_________________
What would the world be, once bereft
Of wet and of wildness? Let them be left,
O let them be left, wildness and wet;
Long live the weeds and the wilderness yet.
- Gerard Manley Hopkins


Top 
 Post subject: Re: Faster than the Speed of Light: E≠mc^2 ??
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:07 am 
Offline
Master of the cookieverse
Master of the cookieverse
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:28 am
Posts: 1761
Gender: female
MBTI type: ARRR
Enneagram type: 5w4
Enneagram Tritype: 549
Class: Pirate
I like my food: Delicious
DefectiveCreative wrote:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21064-neutrino-watch-speed-claim-baffles-cern-theoryfest.html

There was also a documentary on the BBC last night on the subject (don't know if the link will play outside the UK though). One of the theories proposed was something suggested by string theory, which is that the neutrinos might be gettting hurled from our 3 dimensional 'brane' by the energies involved in the experiment, into the 'bulk' of the other dimensions, before coming back into our 'brane' - effectively taking a shortcut. To be fair though, even the string theorist they had on felt that it probably wasn't what was actually happening with this experiment.


A tessering neutrino? 8)

Another explanation for the speed of light discrepancy has to do with the moving detector's (observer satellite's) perceived contraction of space. See: Time-of-flight between a Source and a Detector observed from a Satellite

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn21064-neutrino-watch-speed-claim-baffles-cern-theoryfest.html wrote:
Ronald van Elburg at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands has calculated that special relativity could have messed up the synchronisation of the clocks at CERN and Gran Sasso. This would make neutrinos appear to arrive 64 nanoseconds early – almost exactly what the OPERA experiment observed.

If this argument holds up, rather than breaking Einstein's theory of special relativity, the faster-than-light neutrinos would actually end up reaffirming it.


+1 for Einstein :lol: + :headsmack:

*hugs to poor neutrinos* :teddyheart :'(

_________________
Image


Top 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
 Page 1 of 1 [ 5 posts ] 




Board index » Conversations » The Body


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
suspicion-preferred